Trapped In NZ – Father Won’t Let Child Leave
Continuing in our series of Migrant Tales – first hand accounts of the immigrant experience in New Zealand, taken from locations around the net.
The following was taken from an immigration forum and highlights a problem experienced by many migrants in New Zealand – that of a parent being refused permission to take their child out of the country when a relationship breaks up.
The problem isn’t unique to New Zealand but the country’s isolation, and the many problems working & living in NZ presents, make a sad situation even more heart-breaking for the children and the families involved.
Many parents are caught between a rock and a hard place and find that they have no option other than to remain in the country if they still want access to their children, even if the child was born outside of NZ.
I am in a heart breaking situation and i wondered if anyone else had been in a similar one. If so they I would love to hear from you, or any other thoughts.
I am British and my daughter was born in England in 2007, her father is a kiwi and he was on a working holiday over in London. The relationship was never really ideal, but we decided it was a great idea to move to New Zealand to give our daughter a great childhood etc, so that’s wehat we did when she was 7 months old.
Unfortunately New Zealand and I never really gelled, and I really have tried hard. I was disappointed with my job prospects over here mainly having enjoyed a great and lucrative career over in the UK, and missed the family support that I had at home in England. Unfortunately my relationship with my ex-partner dissolved for various reasons. When did finally separate we had been living in New Zealand for 2 years. We never married or anything.
I had been thinking for quite some time about returning home to England, but my ex-partner refused to allow our daughter to come back with me. I then appplied to the NZ courts to allow myself and our daughter to return to England. This was back in January and I have been on an emotional and isolating journey ever since. Unfortunately the law in New Zealand is not on my side and I am feeling very much the foreigner over here. I really wish I had known the risks before I came over here. It seems that New Zealand are very reluctant to allow a child to relocate out of New Zealand once they have been resident here. I have provided my lawyer with so many examples of reasons for us relocating back to the UK such as finances, family, friends, house, my parents being ill, but nothing is taken into account with any of this and I am so shocked by it!
I have never tried to do a “runner” or anything like that (I’ve read other scary stories about people who have tried it!) and am friendly and supportive of my ex and his relationship with our daughter. It’s a such as sad situation, especailly for our daughter but I feel that I can’t face living in New Zealand until she turns 16. So I’m faced with the likelihood that my daughter is trapped in New Zealand and therefore so am I. I am desprately miserable here, but what can I do? I could leave anyway without my daughter, and from speaking to my lawyer the courts here would happily take that situation and keep my daughter here in NZ.
Hopefully we will get to a court hearing in January, which is a year since I applied to the courts. Feeling very lost. Would love some opinions.” (NB. emphasis ours)
I am in a similar situation, and what is more, I know 3 other women in that same situation JUST in my town (which is not large) in New Zealand. Like you, I encouraged my child’s relationship with father despite his issues and tried to keep things as civil as possible, didn’t try any runners, and got absolutely no credit for any of it. I do not socialise widely, so there could be yet more mothers within a few km of here, as well, but I wouldn’t know it. I suspect there are actually a great many of us all told, all sitting quietly in purgatory. Maybe we should get together and talk. It’s hard to share with others, because they just don’t understand. In my case, there was more than one child concerned. Only my one child with the Kiwi father was of interest to the court, not my other children (who have a different father–previous marriage). Yes, we believed the hype about it being a “better place for children”, hype also repeated by the one child’s father, and it took about a year and a half before the bubble burst. The other children’s dislike of living here, and the distress their Kiwi stepfather had caused them with his behaviour (not to mention issues that would have gained me custody anywhere else but here), was of no concern or interest to them. So while the mother (myself) and other children did not want to stay in New Zealand, the father wanted to stay here in “his” home, and played his home field advantage (after stonewalling our life until he GOT jurisdiction in the first place), so the youngest child was ordered to stay, and so therefore I had to stay if I wanted to be near him and watch over him (a necessity with the father the way he is). I found very little of our reality was represented in court, and the father was catered to enormously. They worked off of a strict formula of “recent research on children needing two parents”, and nothing else but that, and in fact I sensed the judgment had already been made before we even went to court, based on that one gross rule of thumb. Moreover, one that derives from faulty conclusions of research whose raw data did not actually support those conclusions (see http://www.thelizlibrary.org/site-index/site-index-frame.html#soulhttp://www.thelizlibrary.org/liz/lamb-kelly.html). Their focus was very narrow and formulaic. Everything the father had done was utterly minimised, and everything he alleged about myself was blown out of proportion and listened to in an effort to “balance the parties’ crimes out/equalise us” and thus dispose of the case because of their enormous backlog (years!). It was clear during the proceedings that the judge had not even read the details of the affidavits (what details I had managed to ensure stayed in there, which were very few). The affidavits were altered beyond recognition by my lawyer, who kept telling me I was not permitted to be negative in any way, because it would “go against me”, and scratched large numbers of relevant facts out of them, so our reality could not even be truthfully represented.
Madam, you can’t say you are miserable in paradise – they’ll think you are crazy! And of course you shouldn’t be able to take the child, then, crazy lady. You can’t say that you can’t make ends meet here – they’ll just tell you that you’re bad with money. Didn’t you know that New Zealand is an inexpensive place to live? Of course, that is bad for the child too, to have a mum who seemingly doesn’t count her pennies. There is absolutely nothing you can say to these people that will convey the utter misery of living in their remote, provincial, drug-ridden, overpriced and opportunity-less hellhole because “it’s not New Zealand – it’s never New Zealand. YOU are the one with the problem if you want to leave”. God forbid you decide on counseling to help you cope (funds were earmarked to provide more counseling given the number of suicides Family Court was dealing with!), because the other party will make hay of that in court. So you can’t even go for counseling without it being used against you. The thick layers of bureaucracy and inability to simply tell it like it was – it was Kafkaesque. It took years even to get a hearing in the first place. Years! By then my other children had grown up in the shadow of the dispute and so years of the life we WANTED and still want to live have simply been swallowed up by NZ Family Court. We, too, are in limbo and wondering how long we can last like this, everyone having their plans on hold (including people back home who want to see if we can return or not) so one child can be near one parent, who simply wants to keep a job that he likes on his own home field, and nothing more. New Zealand is VERY strongly anti-relocation, among other things because it is so expensive to travel here that they fear the child will not be able to come back and visit the other parent, once permitted to leave, due to the high cost of air travel. So they just choose to trap migrant parents here instead. Great solution, eh. I am sure there are scores of us living in this purgatory. I have been vocal about this issue with any couples I know who are not happy living here, and one already, I know, as a result of my warnings, has refused to have children with her Kiwi partner until they could move back to her own, more developed homeland. Needless to say, she breathed a sigh of relief once she got back safe and sound. I hope that your sharing your story, and me sharing mine, will make people rethink moving here, or rethink having children here if they do not absolutely love it. I hope to god you can leave before she is 16. That is one long sentence, and one I am sure you don’t deserve. The new developments in Rosa v. Rosa (that is, the mother in the remote dismal mining town in Australia who was trapped so her daughter could be near her father, who refused to leave his job for everyone’s sake) may have some tiny ripples, but I am holding out no hope. I am going to keep filing (and thereby unfortunately being forced to use income that should rightfully be buying a home and college for all these children!) until we get to go home, where we want to be. It could be that your daughter’s opinion (if she herself wants to go back to the UK) would be listened to before the age of 16, and you could go home sooner. But generally, the longer they can keep the kids here, the more accustomed to the status quo in NZ they become, and they make friends and are afraid to change, etc., and the less chance they will share your opinion that the UK is a better place to live. I was disgusted by my experience with the courts. To anyone reading this – New Zealand is not in favor of relocation, so don’t think that you can “go back home” if you don’t like it here. You may well be chained for life if you want to stay near your children.
im yet another one trapped in purgatory here in nz. the one thing that i never can understand is how people in nz always tell me i should just go back home as im just the father, and start a new life. there is no way i could ever leave my children. unfortunatly i have to live in a underdeveloped, expensive, low job prospect country that i have nothing in common with ( im canadian which some say is similar, but i havnt found that at all)
seems there are alot of other expats trapped here in nz.. might be worth setting up a dedicated web page on the issue, if any one is interested let me know
It’s me, the original author of this article. Courts not gone well. Unable to relocate home to UK for the “forseeable future” Really would love to get in touch for some support and friend making
Giving you more idea than “foreseeable future” would be kinder than letting you fester in limbo down here. It’s the limbo that kills, doesn’t it. If you knew what your sentence would actually be (until they are 16 and can choose where they live? can you even stay sane until then? will your kid even want to go at that point? will you be a lifer?), it would be different. You could mark the days off on a calendar. Years of not knowing and fruitlessly hoping “they’ll let you go next time”…it’s a kind of torture.
John, I have heard horror stories from blokes, too. One man in AKL had a meth-using Kiwi wife. Made no difference.
Hi there. I read all your comments with great interest. i sympathise with you all, I really do.
I’m writing a book about our blended family’s attempts to relocate from one of the poorest areas of New Zealalnd to the capital city Wellington for work purposes. Its being written as a black comedy otherwise I’d be throwing myself off the nearest cliff.
I woud like however to hear of your stories which I would like to use as other examples. Or if I have to disguise it as fiction ( already been warned off by one lawyer!) develop some stories based on actual events.
I’d love to hear from you. take care
One very painful thing is that when you move to New Zealand, you do expect to be able to travel some, to keep in touch with relatives and friends back home. It seems like it will be just an air ticket away if something happens. But when you move here, your money flees. You do not have that expendable income anymore, and travel back home is impossibly expensive. So when relatives or friends become ill, you cannot just zip back to be with them easily. It is terribly painful to be down in the middle of nowhere and unable to leave easily when relatives and friends back home are struggling with illness. You do want to be with them, to help and comfort and even give money, but you cannot do any of those things.
A lady named Elena Ustyuzhanina had a very sad story on http://www.petitiononline.co.nz not long ago.
She experienced the same migrant discrimination in favour of the Kiwi father who was a sailor, and the court snatched her young child from her and gave to the sailor father, who is at sea all the time and the The poor biological mother, the one who gave birth to and raised this child to the age she is now, cannot even see her own child, because they blamed her for the child’s fear of the father and would not recognise the fear was real.
Surely more of the same nonsense as people report above.
Oh my god, I find that disgusting. It;s like they think the dad is MORE important than the mum, just because he’s the local boy and the mum is the foreigner. Poor mum, my heart goes out to this lady! Believe me, I know, I am the original author of this article. When I first came to NZ, I would never have believed such prejudices existed in this day and age. My ex is a lay about pot smoking adolescent of a man with no career or motivation (I could really go into so many reasons here, but I won’t). I, on the other hand am organised, academic, caring, just an all round good egg, not to mention an evidentially loving mother. And amazingly, the NZ courts will justify in their twisted way brownie points for the kiwi boy. The one that really incensed me was the justification for him being on the DPB (for those of you from the UK, this is the kiwi version of the dole). They actually stated that for him to be unemployed was in our daughters best interests because it meant that he was constantly available to our daughter and that takes precedence over a working parent. C’mon, since when does a school age child benefit from a parent claiming benefits!? Most 2 parents families NEED to work. Because a the end of the day our drive is to provide for our children. I feel like my way of thinking is not just from a different country, but from a different planet some days. And I’m a tax payer…grr!
Contact the webmaster! I am sure many of us on this thread can be put in touch for support. Living in New Zealand puts an entirely different spin on the usual Family Court horrors.
We’re very happy to put people in touch with each other so they can form a support and information network.
Leave your details expressing an interest, all communications will be handled in the strictest confidence.
Let us know if there’s more we can do to highlight this issue in the blog.
I am Evgeny Ustyuzhanin the father of my daughter ********. I am not a KIWI but I am Russian. Mother of ******** refused to take care of her own daughter in ultimative form in front of the judge in the Court. Since then my lives with me. There is nothing to do with immigrants discrimination there are alot to do with the lies****** ******* put all over Internet. And it is asame to use such a lies.
edited to protect the innocent
I checked this case out. The mother is outraged, outspoken, on a mission, and apparently feels that she, her daughter and son were treated unfairly. I do not know the details, but there is the possibility that – even if it wasn’t a knee-jerk pro-Kiwi decision – the mother’s refusal to hand over half the parenting time right off the bat, and her attitude towards the youth welfare institutions, led to her being “targeted” for her protective efforts, and there was no abuse or alienation involved on the mother’s part that would justify snatching the girl and refusing her access. She most certainly wanted to leave the country, a crime in itself. Shared parenting is generally preferred in the courts, but some teachers I have spoken with have told me off the record that the children who are bounced back and forth between homes do not do as well in school. The shared parenting approach is overwhelmingly favoured, however, regardless of a given parent’s ability parent, and when it does work, it is good, but it is not always the best thing for the children in all instances.
mmmm?are you not a citizen now?did you not ,after abandoning your Napier family, move to Auckland, divorce your wife, help your first wife immigrate from Russia to NZ and marry her again and now have your daughter in her care , whilst you are at sea 6 weeks at a time??your story is scary and does not quite gell.
If the wife that helped you get to this country is in a state of defense and has made a mistake along the way from sheer desperation at being in a foreign country that is not familiar with your culture, on her own with 2 children, it is a wonder to me and many others that she can still continue to fight for her rights within her own culture.Speak as you will but live with your own righteousness.You just have more streetwise methinks. poor children.
http://www.transitioning.org/2011/02/02/singaporean-woman-trapped-in-new-zealand-with-baby-son-after-divorce/
Was led to your site after reading about this lady’s plight and finding this page.
I was searching because have a friend stuck in New Zealand for the same reason. I thought I could find some information to help her, but I don’t think I can. Some child custody law was passed that made it less likely that anyone could get out, she said. At the same time, there is a terrible recession, few jobs, especially for foreigners, and high costs. New Zealanders and foreigners are all trying to leave. Based on what two Canadian friends with residency who had brushes in the New Zealand courts informed me, Kiwis seem to know exactly what to say in their own courts. Trained to parrot lines from an early age, as that poor woman and others found out.
http://www.divorce.co.nz/divorce/article/dsp_articledetail.php?article_id=106
I found this too. and segments cut out
An Interview with Jeremy Morley – of International Family Law in NY
“Most countries look at the best interests of the child but what that means, varies incredibly according to who the local judge is and what the local standards are. It is a function of predicting what a court would do based on what you think sounds reasonable in the circumstances. But countries like New Zealand and Australia will be extremely hard to relocate out of, whereas England is likely to be much easier.”
Is New Zealand similar to Australia?
“I deal with huge numbers of typically women, who just want to go home. They are the “trailing spouse,” they trail behind their husband as he moves to NZ, or they fell in love with him somewhere and he is from NZ and the deal was that they would settle there. When the relationship ends she is left with no network, family, no friends and sometimes no job”
Huge numbers.
I was wondering if you have any situations like my friends. she is the mother of 2 children and all three are originally British and have now received permanent passports in NZ having been resident for 3.5 years and the father also British and with a permanent passport having been resident for 3.5 years has walked out on them for another woman but doesnt want the children to leave NZ. My friend and her children do however want to return home permanently to be with her family but are fearful that unless he signs the papers they won’t be allowed to. What advice can you give me for her. Are there any organisations she can contact.
It is incredible that they can even trap children of other nationalities here if there is some Kiwi stake in the child’s affairs. But they do – all the time.
get her to get some consent orders that in the event of a family member becoming ill that in such situation she can legally travel with the children to visist a sick relative….. Then just make sure someone is sick…. ” a relative” as determined by law could be anyone so to the finer details make sure its not too picky down to immediate family make it broad and leave it open you would be amazed how many great aunts and second cousins are unwell underhanded but not impossible!!
she is screwed. They will keep the kids forever and you will be stuck looking at him with the chippie having your kids half the time. sorry. my children want to leave too and the courts will not let them.
interestingly they gotothe end of the world to pin parents down here who want to relocate against partner’s wishes but they are not too keen on tracking down parental abductors TO New Zealand. They just want to stop ones from leaving that their citizens and residents want to chain here in Tar Pit.
http://dartcenter.org/content/children-underground-4
“Even countries that have signed the Hague Treaty agreeing to honor custody orders are reluctant to devote their resources toward tracking parental abductors. Some are more reluctant than others: France, Ireland, New Zealand and the Eastern Bloc countries are the least interested in pursuing such cases, underground organizers claim.”
To the posters on this thread. I read that the court will not permit requested relocations of divorced parents out of Christchurch after the earthquakes, because of the bias against relocation and in favour of geographic status quo. Not a problem for a kid to have a building fall on them or be waiting for the next rumble or liquefaction episode, as long as they have both parents in the same town to be crushed along with t hem! LOL! Way to go and so typical – local rules, global drools.
I am a kiwi stuck in Australia, the best thing the NZ govt ever did was allow our overseas born children when you are not married to become NZ citizens without the other parents consent, with this in mind I must agree even though I am stuck here the NZ law still on this small level works in my favour. I would like to see someone do a study on the impact of all this on the children and the stranded parent! its wrong on so many levels but what actually is the answer! when it ruins peoples lives and opportunities it cant be right! The other side is that out of spite and malice these other parents generally use this law because they “can” without the best interests of the child or the thought for the other parent. I think they should have an international law where parenting agreements are made prior to birth for dual nationalised children/ and parents living away from home countries that are upheld on an international level. There are no support net works for these parents as family certainly is not around and the cost of travel as a single parent is ridiculous with managing children as well. Come on people lets make a site where we can really nut this out and legally create a UN solution????
I totally agree with you- a pre-nup of some sort for parents of duel nationality should be an option. With a world of increasing travel and international relationships, it common sense (oh with hind sight- yes I’m a stuck mum in New Zealand). They should make it a clause on your immigration papers when you sign them “What protocol have you got in place should you relationship dissolve in X time?” We need to change the procedures for the sake of international families. Saving the court time, heart break, expense and depression of people. We all think of relocating abroad as exiting, but we need back up clauses.
I do not know whether a pre-nup would trump their COCA justifications. Do not trust a verbal or written agreement that you can “return if it doesn’t work out”. Mine counted for nothing in the end, and I had it in writing – though it was not a pre-nup. Proof of this kind means nothing to the courts, who seem to believe the solution to the world’s problems means keeping a father in a child’s day-to-day life, regardless of the father’s actions to the detriment of his own family’s well-being or the child’s close attachment to, or need for, her mum. Father – the magic ingredient This is typical of the simplistic solutions they prefer in New Zealand, but the problem’s everywhere now. When women wanted the vote and entered the workforce, they left the window open for men to snatch some of women’s historic turf, and in some cases it’s fair enough that they do, while in others it is not.
Im reading your posts with interest. I left my ex partner and my younger son and moved to the UK with my elder son as I could no longer tolerate my ex and wanted to have a life with a career. It was a hard thing to do and I was punished thoroughly by my ex as he made contact with my youngest son almost impossible for about 4 years until I eventually contacted the hague commision. Solicitors for the Hague in London were fantastic yet those in NZ which represented the commission were less so with one advising my ex to involve interpol in case I came and stole my son away…ridiculous and paranoid behaviour given that I had a fantastic career and lifestyle in London and was trying to have access with my son through the right channels. He was never sanctioned for breaking the agreement to provide opportunities for access. Through the courts and with the help of a barrister in Christchurch I eventually got my son over for access visits for a month at a time and by the time he was 11 he was able to come for a 6 month trial which he greatly enjoyed. It is only after the 6 months is up that the child then reverts to the other country’s jurisdiction and the counsel for child (or should I say my exs free lawyer) made sure my son was brought back to New Zealand and made a permanent order immediately that he was not to leave again …I have decided to no longer fight….the NZ family courts appear to have an agenda and allow their counsel for child to run the show…I cherish the 6 months I have had with my son but I think its NZ for him with its substandard education and lack of opportunities. My ex has already made it very difficult to have phone access again and I doubt the courts will do anything about it. I no longer waste money on lawyers and just tell my son to make his own decisions…this had the most impact….as far as you who are still in NZ…I had no idea as I thought my case was very isolated…I wish you all the best and encourage you to allow your children to present their own wishes to the courts after the age of about 9. Try to start off with holidays home and build from there if you can.
Oh my love, my heart goes out to you. Although I haven’t left my child in NZ, I have at times, seriously thought about it, leaving my beloved baby and going home to the UK for my home and financial security and my lovely family (of course you do when put in this position).It’s such a heart breaking position to be in and I totally understand you. I actually almost decided that I would leave without my child as I was so miserable in NZ. In New Zealand they seem perfectly happy to lt you go, knowing that a child will be without their mother. Oh but how reluctant they are to have a child face life without their father. OK, I know it’s a controversial subject. My my life long belief is that children, particularly in their first 5 years need mum more than dad, I do believes it’s a fundamental biological need (unless mum is crazy bananas or severely handicapped in some way) It is, I believe that NZ is so overly politically correct that they give presdence to the father over the mother because father rights movements have been so active in NZ for the last 5 years. Had your situation happened pre 2005 you probably would have been able to take your baby boy home to the UK. I often wonder, what will these children think when they are old enough to understand? Strangeley enough as I child I was in a similar sort or arrangement with my father having custody of me in the UK . I wish I had been under my mother’s primary care to this day (and I’m 34 now). I feel resentful to the courts of the 1970′s. I never imagined history repeating itself. I actually have a stronger relationship as an adult with my mum, who I love dearly, for all she went through, than my father. My father would often alienate me against my mother which I didn’t realise until I was a later teenager. Which is scary, because as a child you always trust and believe your parent. One day your son will come back to you with a stronger and different bond. I don’t blame my mother at all, I sympathise with her and we are on the same page. Plus and can moan about my dad and she totally gets it! I still speak to dad, but I can completely understand why mu mum left him. My mum is independent and strong. Do’;t you worry, your younger son will see that too one day xxx
I really want to get in touch with you as I’ve made the same hard decision about living in the UK and my child being returned to live in NZ with her father. It’s be great to talk to someone who has been through it
According to http://www.missingpersons.gov Child Abduction Report, “New Zealand consistently has the highest incidence of abduction and access applications.”
Until 2001, most abductions were into New Zealand. Then the tide changed, and now more abductions are out of New Zealand. Most of the abductions to New Zealand were “from” Australia.
Read “Janie’s” story in comments below this piece. I know a few cases like this. She is actually not alone at all.
http://www.hugurkids.com/abduction-media/parents-now-more-likely-to-flee-with-kids-2.html?Itemid=64
“Promised a good life” – yea right.
Reply to Donna Richards
Donna this may be a late reply, but you need to look at all facts before making such obviously uninformed comments.
I came to NZ in 2000 after finding out that my husband who has both dual citezenship in NZ and the UK, that he had never applied for residency for myself and two older boys from my previous marriage. A month after getting here, he dumped us all, stating he no longer loved me, put a caps order on our son we had together in Scotland, thus I could have been kicked out of the country with my older boys, whilst my youngest kept against his will here in NZ, by what I found out was a Meth addict. I was also soon to find out that he had left my country under a very large cloud of debt. He stole my passports and entered the internal affairs office makign our son a citizen by decent, though he didn’t even need my passport to do this. I logged this with the police as I knew he had stolen my passport, and that of my middle son…Not his own! he denied this, but now internal affairs has it logged that he indeed did have my passports!
You talk of morals and rights, but where were my rights? I married a man who promised me a good life in NZ, and it has been 8 years of hell, worst thing was I paid for us all to move here. Family have died whilst being held here, and I couldn’t go home to bury my poor father as I didn’t have residency status, and would not have been allowed back in.
I have now decided to take this man on as before I had a nervous breakdown because of his abuse of me and my children, ad I intend to let the NZ, and British media know exactly what has happened to us.
Please remember that some of us deserve to take our children home, and whiilst I did not have the fight then, I do now, and I will make it known so that no other woman or man has ths happen to them, and that certain countries are almost fanatical when it comes to family law.
I have even stated that he himself is able to return to Britain with our child, so he can be with him, but he has such fear after what he did to us, that he is utterly determined to ruin any chance our little boy has of having a good life with a family that ruly love him.
NZ has not been kind to myself or my children, and they would be better cared for in the UK, with family that actually care what happens to my little boy.
Don’t beat us in the know ith your maorals, silly woman, know the facts before you spout utter crap about something you obvosly know nothing about.
Janie
“Feeling very much the foreigner”. I know one local woman who was in a divorce case a few years ago. She was 1st generation Kiwi but had a distinctly ethnic (Eastern European) name. Her husband’s family was Anglo, of an older family, with a conventional Kiwi Anglo-Scots name. She said (in her 100% pure Kiwi accent) that she had been given the “foreigner treatment” in court. Her husband and the husband’s counsel knew exactly what to say to encourage this treatment. How many generations do you have to live here to not be a foreigner and be given the “treatment”? Or is it better to just change your name?
These cases make me very sad as i am a loyal kiwi. But unfortunately my husband and i have also been involved in false allegations from my husbands ex so that she could gain custody of their daughter. Women like this have only made the mens right more active hence the problems with removing children from our country. We now have full day to day care with every 2nd weekend to the mum. We tried everything to make her have more contact but she would drag us through court to deny this and put us and her daughter smack in the middle of awful untruths.
She is now relocating to Australia…my fear is that she will remove my step daughter from the country and we do not have the finances to chase her up. My thoughts are with those who are stuck here in my “awful, horrible , poverty stricken, backwoods country” Must be terrible to walk along the beach uninterrupted and look at the clear water and make sandcastles
from unedumicated kiwi
Her “false allegations” can’t have been that effective – she only spends every other weekend with the child she gave birth to. Or would you deny her that too?
One woman’s false allegations can be another woman’s hard truths. Perhaps you don’t like seeing your son from the perspective of someone who’s lived with him for a while.
They have beaches and sand in Australia, and there are flights between the two countries.
You didn’t read my post very clearly. We gave her as much contact as we could. Because we know how important it is to have both parents in her life.
Though i refused to pay for travel costs for her as she was the one that moved away. As i have a house and 2 of my own children to provide for i couldn’t afford the costs.
In the end she couldn’t be bothered seeing her child so often, which meant the girl thought her mum didn’t love her..
The mum resorted to lies to try get the court to relocate the child closer to her.
There were 3 different stories so the court, police and cyfs gave the child back to us. shes been in our care for 6 years now and doing fine,
Im saying that the family court has finally cottoned on to the fact there are deceitful people out there and they have to make the best judgements they can on the evidence given. I am not accusing anyone here of doing that im just saying food for thought for the courts.
Have many male friends who have spent their life savings to fight for their kids in court being accused of all sorts of soul destroying stuff. When all could have been done amicably and the children not put through interrogations from lawyers time and time again.
Though i disagree with giving a child to a father on the benefit just because he has more time to be able to spend with a child. Its not time but quality time that counts. i can’t comment on whether other countries are better to bring up children as im sure anywhere you go “may” have the same problems as New Zealand. As you love your country ..so do i…
I wish you all the best Kia kite
fathers make ridiculous accusations too. I got the brunt of them. No proof offered. Just charges, and no proof was asked for. I had proof of all my charges. photos, police reports. I was utterly truthful and conservative. it did not matter in the end. some of the father’s accusations were quite wild, with the father’s rellies backing it up because blood’s thicker than water. both genders say whatever they can to win. it’s a shame for the kid’s sake.
This comes into it in New Zealand to a large degree with the clique mentality here
the local who can use all his or her connections to do well and the foreigner who hates it, does not settle, wants to leave for that reason, and find they cannot due to the law favouring the party who can exploit the status quo
http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/local/news/general/splits-harder-for-families-not-from-act/2332742.aspx
Family law review in the UK recently deplored the amount of time it was taking for families to move through the court there. They should try it in New Zealand – much worse.
My story is just unfolding and a little different. I am a kiwi mum, with two children who also have a kiwi Dad. My new partner of nearly 3 years has just had to move to Australia for work (he is highly educated and could not get a relevant job here in NZ) and had to leave me and the kids behind because of the inevitable difficulty in me being able to take the children with me (they are well under 16).
I have not yet embarked on any journey to try and get out of NZ with the kids, as I know it is going to be a long and possibly fruitless effort. I have briefly consulted my lawyer but was told the usual story, and that I would probably not win in court. I have not yet even raised the issue with their father, as I know he will shut me down straight away – previous experience and his controlling nature make this an obvious reaction. I am devastated and very depressed. I just want to move on with life with my children and long to be with my partner overseas and at the moment feel like even though I left my ex, he still has control of me and my life.
I appreciate that the father has a right to a relationship with his kids and they obviously love their Dad but they have their problems with him and some of his parenting methods are less than dubious. I have recently been through a court process to gain further day to day care, which was eventually granted after mediation and the children being consulted. However, the kids still see their Dad 5 days out of 14 which is apparently one day shy of me having main control in the family court’s eyes. He and his lawyer rallied hard for this extra day – which I wish had not been granted.
I just want to know if there are other kiwi mums out there in my position too? I have family in Australia additional to my partner being there and I want to be closer to them and let my kids experience sharing life with them too. The children’s father’s family has had the benefit of access to the children up until this point and never taken great proactive or nurturing advantage of it. They are at times quite a passive negative influence on the children’s lives and the children don’t feel a close emotional bond with them. I would be willing to fly my kids back or even fly their father over as often as I could but just feel like things are not ever going to be in my favour and that the kids Dad will never be reasonable about coming to a solution.
So as others have said, it is either I leave my kids with their Dad and go by myself, or I stay here and be miserable while the life I long for goes on without me – and as a mother I could never leave my kids.
I would really appreciate hearing from others in my position as I gather the confidence to try and fight for a brighter future.
There’s a Kiwi woman in my town in a similar position. The father of this one is rarely even in the country, though he owns a home there, and I do not understand why they will not permit her to move on and make a better life for the child. I don’t think that New Zealand courts are unique in their current thinking that the mere presence of a father, of any sort, as long as he is a male and somewhat involved in the child’s life and not a complete reprobate, is some kind of instant ticket to the child’s permanent emotional well-being. We have the same situation of the NZ grandparents being not very child-centred and having more “emotionally available and age-appropriate” family in the other country. The courts seem to be ignoring things such as the country’s economy, educational, job and housing opportunities, the character of the local area (low-decile, crime-ridden or earthquake zone, etc.), the child’s possibly foreign heritage being somehow less important than the Kiwi heritage, entrenched conflict or poor communication between the parents, abuse or substance history, mother’s well-being, other factors, and focusing exclusively on father involvement in a very narrow perspective.
I doubt you will be permitted to leave. Your boyfriend will have to move back to NZ and drive a taxi, or you’ll have to leave without the children, or he’ll have to wait until your youngest is 16, probably. There is a genuine blindfold about the conditions that make New Zealand a difficult place to live, compared to others, and a basic assumption that any father at all, even if a less effective or functional parent than the mother, is better than none and therefore counterbalances an entire host of other factors that would weigh against forcing a family to stay in an unhappy place for years on end.
Thank you for your response, it is comforting to know that there are like minded people out there who relate to my frustration with the system. Who knows where things will end up for me and my children, but I am going to do my best as their mum in the meantime and face the challenges head on. I have to believe that eventually things will come good for me, and that I will be able to move on to the future I want for me and my children. The NZ Family Court system may eventually have to sit up and take notice of those of us in this situation if our voices continue to grow louder.
Frankly I don’t think they care. They see themselves as a vanguard of children’s rights but all they are doing by taking a virtuous “children’s rights stance” is giving especially cunning lawyers an easy template for drawing a “picture” of their client (and the other parent) that they want that judge to interpret in that perspective . One problem with the system is that they have no time and no resources. And the judges seem to be kind of naive about how cases are “crafted” (and some of the local dynamics or interpersonal relationships between professionals, as well) and do not reflect the child’s actual emotional reality. And to what extent a good lawyer affects the reporting of the situation. They’re also not very familiar with foreign cultures and have all the attitudes that are typical for here, which is the culture you’re playing this out in. So whichever parent can present a better “nativist care of children morality tale” or market himself better in the tiny time slot you have to make your case in, is the parent who gets his way. In your case, for instance, it would be very easy for the father to come out and play to all the stereotypes about “money grubbing mum running away with HIS children to her foreign boyfriend” You know that is what he would do..It doesn’t matter if he ignores them most of the time and might do the odd outdoor fun thing with them. If he can do a fun outdoor thing 3x a year and document it well enough, he can represent that as the whole of his life with them, because the court doesn’t know any different. The court can’t review a couple years’ worth of 24-hour videocam showing all the invisible hard yakka YOU put in with your kid that the father can never be stuffed doing, but would cumulatively make a huge difference in the life of that child if he or she were not able to benefit from it any longer. Nor can you “criticise fathers”. It just hurts the way YOU are perceived, for being “negative” – even if the father has problems that affect his functioning as a parent, or competing interests that constantly take time away from his parenting. It’s just a pile of dumb stunts, all of it. Mine for instance asks my son to give me calls in the middle of their meals or while he is playing a game so that he “seems reluctant” to call the mother or associates mother-calls with annoying interruption. Stunt. It is all a huge, ridiculous game I have enormous distaste for. And in the end, the stress and the time and resources taken away from parenting the children seems not to be worth any outcome. I could say “just don’t get caught in that situation in the first place” but who among us thinks they’ll end up this way?
There is this idea that this is a “family friendly” place where you go to escape the problems of the rest of the world. But people experience hard times here. I’s a country that won’t look at the way people are having to live – and the way people are having to leave. Surely there are reasons to have a rethink, all the more so when for time immemorial our ancestors have migrated to better lives, and made themselves and the world stronger for so doing.
Hi there. I read all your comments with great interest. i sympathise with you all, I really do.
I’m writing a book about our blended family’s attempts to relocate from one of the poorest areas of New Zealalnd to the capital city Wellington for work purposes. Its being written as a black comedy otherwise I’d be throwing myself off the nearest cliff.
I woud like however to hear of your stories which I would like to use as other examples. Or if I have to disguise it as fiction ( already been warned off by one lawyer!) develop some stories based on actual events.
I’d love to hear from you. take care Denise
Hi Denise,
I know the feeling, I am gathering research at present based in New Zealand, UK, and Australia on the abuses of the Hauge, and the abuses in the legal system, and the family voilence issued based on the emotional and mental side of things. I have had to change names but have followed the facts in the cases, and the foreword reads all names and places have been changed to protect the guilty, if by chance an indivduals thinks that the story is about them the author and publisher suggests it is one’s own gulity Conscious, and refutes that that individual is involved in any of the stories within this book.
One has to see the black comedy in these situations, it is to Depressing otherwise to believe that in this day and age that this clear blunt discrimination is happening
Have any of you posting on this thread read about the Azzaoui case? Guess he became fed up with life in “Godzone” and used subterfuge to try and keep the children in Algeria. Not blissed out in Kaikohe? Can’t imagine why. Someone probably told him that he would never be able to take them out of here, with the court system here. If they were born and raised in New Zealand, he should ideally have no case, but smart of him to detain them in Algeria just long enough to snatch jurisdiction. I feel bad for the mum, but funny in the papers there’s no sympathy for the parents stuck herein EnZed or the victims of Kiwi parents who played their cards to snatch jurisdiction. Just the “Kiwi” children taken to Algeria and Turkey.
“(the consul) was reportedly involved in a tense stand-off over three children and sat on the floor refusing to leave the property “without my citizens”.”
Can you imagine anyone from a non-Kiwi consulate going to those lengths to help some of us out? A stake-out in New Zealand, to have their citizens returned to their place of birth? Kiwi parent seizes passport and won’t return it, consulate steps forward to help? Noooooo, not mine anyway. Can’t imagine that level of care on the part of the UK, Canadian or U.S. embassies.
No sympathy in the NZ press either for the things we have had done to us by Kiwis, to trap us here in New Zealand. They consider that New Zealand is okay to be stranded in, because any children Kiwi or half-Kiwi evidently belong here in New Zealand, and the non-Kiwi parent has to suck it up because this, as one person told me, is “the place to be”? Let some half-Kiwi kid be taken somewhere else though to the evil outer world, and they’re all up in arms about it. Typical hypocrisy.
Hi angryparent, we’ve mentioned the Mohamed Azzaoui case in comparison to that of the Maddison family.
In the Maddison case the family left New Zealand to for the mother’s home country of Denmark, for medical treatment for the child that was unavailable in New Zealand.
Read more: Kiwi Dad Wants His Kid Back, Let’s Hear From Mum
After a period of time the father returned to New Zealand, leaving his wife and child behind. The mother decided not to return to New Zealand and there is now a custody battle over their 4 year old daughter who has been in Denmark since she was a toddler.
Most of the publicity around this emanates from New Zealand’s and the father’s point of view. Accusations of kidnapping and child abduction are being made, but as far as we can tell, the child is lawfully in Denmark and the mother has every right to keep her there.
In the Algerian case, it is a matter of the father being entitled under Muslim law (had the Kiwi mum become a Muslim too? It probably does not matter as long as they are over there on his turf and he himself is Muslim) and the two countries have different parental rights systems, whereas in the Denmark case, if indeed the mother had planned it at all (and we do not know this, but being familiar with the excruciating courts here I would not be surprised), the mother played a quieter longer-term game, obtaining jurisdiction the legal way and not letting on that she was unhappy. Unless he can prove she was forum shopping, she has won the game fair and square, to the great benefit of her child, who is much better off in Denmark with or without her medical condition.
It is my opinion that both parents were unhappy living in New Zealand, as many migrants are (how many migrants never find any of these sites about the realities of living here, but hate it nontheless? I can tell you that people who read and comment on these sites are the tip of an iceberg), and managed to find a way to beat the system. But I could be wrong, and the Danish mother would be foolish to admit she had been forum shopping anyway.
Hello to all,
This unfortunately is not just a New Zealand base problem, I have two friend in the UK which are stuck in the same position, and 4 in Australia. Australia I note do not give any benefits at all to New Zealand women trapped under the system awaiting court, and generally you don’t get reallocation either. If your luck you may get legal aid. It brings in the problems with the hauge as well in this situation. I had a friend in that position no roof over her head, no money, and the New Zealand Goverment did nothing, and is doing nothing to help these women because they arent fighting hauge cases, regardless that they have had passport blocks against them. In fact when they were written to many different MPs they were so out of touch of the actual facts of what these women go through it was crazy. Then they wonder why these women, back their backs to get well qualified and immigrate to the UK, Canada etc.
There are so many different issues that make this a matrix of problems that cannot be tarred by just one brush, all cases need to be access on the facts of that case not this one size fits all approach which is present. There needs to be a balance found not a swing one way to another. There needs to be a change world-wide in regards to reallocation, and on a case by case base.
I personally was a foreign Women, in a foreign country when my Ex decided to walk out, and start his fourth family….(within 12 years). He cut the lease after threatening to do so, knowing that I was unable to get any help by the system, and that being a foreigner I wouldn’t get the lease. (Note the Justice system did not see this as abuse, or domestic violence.)
My 10 month old baby and I were thrown out onto the street to sleep in the gutter, and no mnoey to buy food. I didn’t receive legal aid even tho, I was not working and he did with an annual income of $80,000. At the same time of this happening he expressed to all our friends that ‘I had run of with our child’.
Passport blocks were put in place and we were trapped for almost a year in a foreign country, with no support, fighting a legal base uphill, fighting to survive. I have a $200,000 legal debt at the end of it but we did return home, after my ex refused to mediate and push right through to a court hearing on the tax payer’s purse. What my Ex bizarrely couldn’t understand that he was actually doing this to his child as well. He was unable to think actually of the child and put the child’s needs first. This was before I started studying and understood the Narcistic-sociopath (PDs) personality disorders, which are on the rise.
He then breached the court order within a week, which allowed myself and my child to return home, due the self executing order in place, he didn’t want to pay a parenting payment, and so the court orders were breached.
Once your child turns 16 their have the choice to move.
On a final note
‘Faith is the bird that sings when the dawn is still dark’. ~Rabindranath Tagore
Keep faith things will change,
There is a need for it to change, in regards to England based Law when family courts are regarded, for the generations of daughter’s to come will judge our system and generation harshly from the history.
There is a ground movement, present of unrest in many different countries because of this clear discrimination of the parent with the main custody, and the abuse.
The question is, How do we all make a stand and say enough in one voice?
Will many voices be heard? Or will it be dismissed because at least 80% will be women?
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10795699
In the Kiwi press, TYPICAL, you only see left-behind Kiwis whose wives or husbands ran off screaming with the children. Not trapped foreign parents in New Zealand. What do they think life is like for us, chained to a life we don’t want here on their godforsaken islands? So many of us come from countries that are nicer places to live, and we have no support system here. Often the Kiwi partner has worked the system to the native’s advantage and we did not even receive a fair go in court. The stories of poor stranded foreign parents I have heard that will never see the light of day. But high-profile “poor Kiwi” cases sell papers, don’t they.
I don’t know what I’m supposed to do, I’m currently in England, on a month visit, the first since I have left, nearly a decade, and my wife has used the opportunity to ‘do the runner’ I revived a distressed call from her unfortunately, vindictive and manipulative mother, saying that she needed help and had broken down, that she was deeply concerned for my children’s safety, and she thought it best to go and get them, my wife was apparently leaving the kids with the child youth services, and my mother in law wanted me to give permission for her to take them back to Australia, to which reluctantly, and being that there was no contact with my wife, agreed should they be in danger.
After flying out immediately she then initiated a conversation that was nothing to do with their safety, and was about how they where all off to Oz. I tried everything possible to keep her there, and our last conversation was a reluctant ok then whatever, I’ve got to go now.
I am desperately trying to get my flight reorganized, so I can return early, I’ve only been gone a week. I’m sat here in the UK and I feel so helpless, I don’t know what I can do. I can’t take this agony. I was on a mutually decided trip to visit my home country where I left family after the passing of my father. Her argument began when I did not contact her for a few hours, she spiraled out of control, and I was barraged with abuse on the day I was attending my fathers gravesite for the very first time. Her mother is telling her she’s psychophrenic, and she’s made a feeble attempt at apologizing, whilst maintaining it was all my fault for not checking in for a few hours, bearing in mind the 12 hour time difference. Her mother will now be convicing her how much if an evil man I am, especially after laying the fault that she flew there on me.
I don’t want to get lawyers involved, I have the most amazing children, and I just want her to be there for them, I am panicking now, and rambling, oh god
I’ve been through the family court wringer in New Zealand applying to relocate with my daughter back to the UK. I went to hell and back and then some.
I understand how awful it is, especially when you are alone and a million miles from home and support when you need it most.
I felt, and I believe many other share the same experience, that the courts immediately put you on the back foot for wishing to relocate and change your child’s status quo. However I believe my reasons were very reasonable- I simply wished my daughter to have a better life as I think most parents naturally do. I wanted to move back home to the UK for familiarity, family, friends, support network, better job opportunities, more affordable living and better financial security to offer my child. The courts used all sorts of things against me, and glossed over the father’s negative points (they there were some major concerns, such as pot smoking, being abusive, and being work shy) supporting their own citizens. I looked bad in the courts eyes for evening mentioning these things and I felt I’d have more chance of a successful relocation if I just shut up about that. New Zealand prefer the “friendly” approach to relocation. However you are damned form the beginning, eventually I realized that I would never be granted permission to relocate back to the UK with my daughter. I clearly stated that I did not at all want to cut out my daughter’s father from her life. Quite the opposite, I wouldn’t have moved to NZ in the first place if I didn’t want my daughter to have a father. I generously offered him 4 holidays per year in NZ and UK and a computer and internet service to keep in regular touch and I would foot the bill for all of that. It’s not ideal, but when 2 parents are from different countries it’s the best solution I could come up with. The father said no, that he will have our daughter full time and I can come and visit her. I am not a bad person at all, I’m a normal regular mummy. I would understand it if I had some terrible flaw, like being on heroin or something like that, but I’m not like that at all!
My daughter was born in the UK and I was never married to her father. We were together for a year and a half while we both lived in the UK. We moved to NZ when our daughter was 6 months old. I knew early on I wasn’t happy in NZ, and there was none of the father’s family nearby either, they all live 6 hours drive away. I was feeling isolated and depressed, with little work opportunity. I have previously had a lucrative career in the UK and my aim was to replicate that in NZ, but unfortunately after exhausting every avenue it was not happening. My ex asked me to give it another year, which I did. So by the time I had completely made up my mind to return home to the UK we had been living there for 2 years. At the point of applying for relocation I thought “2 years, whoop-de-do”, the courts can clearly see that we’ve never settled here? No, they didn’t!
I spent 2 years going through an agonising and expensive court process, enduring further abuse from the father and felt like I was living in hell. I was advised by my lawyer that to apply for a protection order in NZ would put me out of the running for relocation as the judges view that as a barrier to relocation, so I had no choice but to suffer on thinking of the long term goal, to get back home. I bent over backwards to be nice to the father, to try and make things as comfortable as possible, but things got worse and worse.
By the end of 2 years fighting twice in the courts for relocation, it was clear that the courts were not in support of my daughter relocating back to the UK anyway!
I was ill, skinny, messed up, a shell of my former self. I was permanently run down. I knew I couldn’t take any more. I felt like I was going to die within a year. That is no way to be a good parent to your child, my child was suffering because of my anguish. And I felt the awful conflict between my and the dad would never cease, it would only get worse. That’s no good for a child to see. Such a contrast to the happy day she was born and my excited hopes for her future, ones that I thought her dad shared too.
I returned to the UK with my child end of 2011, my father was ill and consequently died. Despite this I started to feel happier, being back home and feeling for the first time in years safe. I could see an attainable future again. My daughter was also the happiest she’d been in years and we maintain regular phone and skype contact with her dad. In NZ it was living in permanent limbo, and having to run every life decision past the father, you lose your human right to autonomy in so many ways, and an abusive man uses the courts to gain more control. I knew that I couldn’t return to NZ in my heart and health. Her father applied through the Hague convention to have our daughter returned to NZ and was successful. All those clauses in the Hague convention (clause 13 b regarding grave risk of harm to the child) mean nothing. No matter how depressed I had been feeling in NZ and the knock on effect that had on my daughter the fact that we’d had shared care and he was willing to have her full time meant that was no defence. The abuse we’d suffered wasn’t bad enough, and they advised that NZ could sort out a protection order upon our return, they can’t do that before you leave. I have found out each country interprets 13 b differently, and even in very serious high end abuse, the Hague policy is to return the child to the other country and to get the social services of that other country to intervene. Who would want to live in the other country under a protection order when you can live in your home country and feel safe?
Sadly I had to let my daughter go back with her dad recently. She is only just 5. She was ripped from my arms crying and screaming and saying quite clearly that she wanted to stay with me. Her father came to collect her.
I am choosing to remain in the UK without her. To some that might seem terrible, as when you become a mum you stick by your kids through thick and thin, end of. I also feel like that. I am a good mum. But I view it as self preservation. I’d rather get myself strong, being home and happy and importantly alive for her when she is older and needs me. I just know I couldn’t carry on living lie that in NZ any more as I would be little use to her feeling the way I did. Or worse I would die. I really tried very very hard to make a life in NZ, but I just wasn’t big enough or strong enough to hack it.