It’s True – Kiwis Don’t Really Like Americans
Continuing in our series of Migrant Tales – first hand immigrant stories about life in New Zealand, taken from locations around the net.
This post was left on an international emigration forum, one that caters to migrants in many different countries. It was made by a New Zealander who comes from Christchurch and although it is brutally honest don’t shoot the messenger, s/he admits they are sweeping generalisations and there is no intention to offend.
We’re showing it here because it may help many Americans to understand why they find it hard to be accepted into small town minded New Zealand:
Its True – Kiwis dont really like Amercians.
We generally don’t like or trust Americans. Sad but true. Sorry. If you are an American, make sure you know other Americans that you plan on socialising with when you come out to NZ. Otherwise unfortunately, as many of you are finding out, you are likely to remain socially isolated. Out of all the English speaking world, Kiwis dislike Americans the most (probably unfairly)
.
Don’t shoot the messenger but here is a bit of a heads up about how we Kiwis think. Please try not to be offended; be aware that these are sweeping generalisations, they are NOT necessarily the truth of the situation but I have outlined some of the ways that Kiwis generally perceive the USA and Americans.Rightly or wrongly WE:
a. View your political antics on the world stage with suspicion
b. Are scathing of the arrogance with which the USA has dismissed UN directives (eg over Iraq) and initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol – truly your arrogance on the world stage is breathtaking;
c. Believe that your country thinks it is a law unto yourselves and we don’t respect that
d. Feel you selfishly gobble up far too much of the world’s resources – much more than your share
e. Believe that given the size of your country, you have had the capacity to do things like end world hunger but because it is not in your political interests to do so, you don’t bother
f. View your extroverted nature with suspicion as some sort of attempt to dominate others by being the biggest and loudest and having a superior attitude (much as you attempt to dominate the world stage)
g. See much of your sense of humour as being corny and simplistic (eg the only sitcoms we really like are those that rely on an ironic, more sarcastic or dry humor)
h. Cant believe how many people in the USA seem to be gullible and just not all that intelligent (that’s the result of those day time chat shows/media/trashy magazines/Hollywood superstar silly behaviour that don’t present you in a good light)
i. Resent that the USA sets a trend and a few short years later we have it happening in our society eg increasing obesity. Given media influence and the economic power of your corporates, we feel powerless to stop this and really really don’t like it.
These are some of the ways we think and the attitudes you are up against. Thought you should know then you wont be surprised when you don’t get a fair welcome and open offers of friendship.
You may also be interested in the following selection:
An American’s take on “rip-off New Zealand”
Studying in New Zealand – An American students tells what it’s really like to study in New Zealand
Immigrants caught in a cold poverty trap – An American and Australian couple
American says Tauranga mis sold
An American asks himself “why New Zealand”
American ‘put downs’ in the NZ media – 2 examples
1:30 “What happens is these big fat americans, of which there are plenty you gotta admit, they’re up to here with MacDonalds..they’re huge blubbery people…”
0:24 “You’re fortunately then one of those Americans who are aware that Australia and New Zealand are two separate countries?”
10:13″‘Well Rugby is our national game, it’s a little bit different to (American) football, you have to be a real man to play it”
I’m sorry but this post is rubbish..In fact I would go as far to say as “every single comment” in it is rubbish. I’m a North Island Kiwi, my family have lived in NZ for many generations and although most nationalities in the world will joke about the “loud American” that’s pretty much where it ends. Yes, we do think Americans are more opinionated, some NZrs don’t like that, I personally don’t like that NZrs lack the ability to communicate what they think and should be MORE opinionated. And the comment that NZrs don’t trust Americans is interesting, NZrs don’t trust anyone, period! My partner and I enjoy befriending people from other countries and cultures…they’re more interesting…topics of conversation are almost endless. This post is just the view of one very obviously narrow minded person and considering the poster is from Chrimechurch, I guess it shouldn’t surprise. South Islanders don’t even like North Islanders that much. NZrs are very much influenced by America…most of our TV shows are American, the majority of music we listen to is American, if we were anti American why would it be so entwined in our everyday lives? To any Americans out there reading this…NZrs don’t dislike Americans, it doesn’t mean everyone will like you either, but it won’t be because you are American HOWEVER If you’re contemplating coming to NZ for anything more than a tourism holiday I would think twice…I would guarantee it’s not going to be as great as you think and want it to be, but you probably already know that if you’re on this website
Thanks for providing such a lucid account of how an average Kiwi thinks, but we think the OP’s comments were far better.
Normally we don’t publish comments that use fake IP addresses but yours was too good to pass up.
Update:
Anti-Americanism has been going strong for some years in New Zealand, perhaps it started with the anti-nuclear protests, perhaps with the Vietnam war. The conflicts in the middle east certainly haven’t helped much.
How may it be defined? we liked this one:
“Anti-Americanism is not solely, or even mostly, about harassing Americans. Former US Ambassador to New Zealand, Charles Swindells, once described anti-Americanism as “empty, inaccurate criticism of US ideals or actions that offers no constructive alternatives and gives no credit where credit is due”. He said it was also about rejecting policies simply because they came from the US. Others would have a broader definition and certainly allegations of cultural imperialism and criticisms of globalisation are usually targeted directly at the US.” The Listener, 2006
Further reading
http://deanesmay.com/2007/10/08/anti-american-bigot-vs-wife-abroad/
The anti-Americanism is weird considering that:
1. New Zealand supplied Agent Orange to America during the Vietnam War:
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0109-09.htm
and
2. American media and music is extremely popular in New Zealand. Many New Zealanders have not watched movies produced/created in their own country with the notable exception of the “Lord of the Rings” trilogy and perhaps “Perfect Creature”/”Boy”.
3. New Zealand has had its own share of questionable activities, such as the conflict in Bougainville, where mercenaries from New Zealand were hired to “maintain stability”.
http://www.greens.org.nz/speeches/mercenary-activities-prohibition-bill
It’s a weird attitude to have when rather than the country “being in the right and therefore correct in criticising others”, it is more likely the country where “people really don’t care what the government does or did in the past (NZ-ers have famously told me that their democracy is “real democracy”) but need a convenient focus for hatred or suspicion”. Think “1984″ and all the hypocrisies that entails.
I would not recommend americans moving to new zealand. A visit is expensive but pleasant. Don’t move there unless you feel like being looked down on and being the object of ongoing extortion.
Americans who set up home in tourist hot spots like the Lakes District of the South Island can enjoy great scenery, good climate and less anti-Americanism than elsewhere. ( the younger generation is not anti-American btw ) But NZ is primarily about scenery and nature. Canadians are loved more than Aussies or Brits so just fake it- kiwis cannot tell the difference accent-wise. Christchurch is very ”English” and snobby
Yes the younger generation IS anti-American. The older ones still remember the war and relate to America as a former ally against a common enemy. Now, America is blamed for everything. And if you are an American, by default you too are blamed. The rudest comments I have heard down there have come from younger people. Do NOT be fooled.
Im Australian. From my experience, all the poster’s comments are bullcrap. Americans are much much much nicer than white kiwis in Australia. Kiwis are rude, over bearing, and they are the ones that expect everything for nothing. They even think Australia belongs to them. And you guys pretend to be Australians, stop pretending to be us when you are not, and give us Aussies a bad name. The crime rate in Australia had rocketed since this millions of Kiwi arrivals over the past few years. And even though you do your best to fake an Ausralian accent, it is not going to work in Australia. We can tell from your lack of manners, rudeness and obscure comments alone, that you are a Kiwi mate.
Kiwis don’t like Americans because like Aussies and Western Europeans, they won’t take abuse.
Kiwis don’t like anyone other than themselves, if you Americans have experienced rudeness from them, imagine how we Asians feel, we are the scapegoat from everything bad here! they also hate Australians, Islanders, Indians, Brits, etc. but they sure love our money!
Whoever says NZrs don’t like Americans is biased. I am a born Kiwi and I have yet to meet an American I dont like. Also, you do not have to be a man let alone a real man,to play rugby. Even our girls play rugby, they play soccer and cricket too. It makes no odds what ones nationality is, there are good, not so good and those one wouldn’t want to call a friend.
Then kudos to you, as you’d be the exception.
http://www.expatexposed.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=40108
My teen kids and I lived in New Zealand for a couple years, and gratefully are home in Boston now.
We liken the standard Kiwi press to a supermarket tabloid in its headlines. The Kiwi press would pick out items singling out America, and these were always insulting, negative, weird and brutal stories with no context to them at all, presented in a group every day so as to always give the same terrible and inaccurate impression of America. Or the headlines to the articles would be very misleading, assuming that no one would bother to read the actual article but counting on the impact of the headlines and choice of material and wording to reinforce the stereotype. They never published anything positive unless it was something about Kiwis teaching America something or Kiwis or their products doing well in America. The bad content was all they ever published about America. It was no wonder that Kiwis expressed such depraved views of the U.S.!
My kids were shell-shocked at the level of ignorance about America and Americans there, because they knew the truth. We might as well have weighed 350 pounds, been retarded Southern Baptists, had a personal army and violent temper, owned a chain of McDonalds, and been walking around with giant nukes strapped to our crotches with wads of cash falling out of our pockets. That is what Americans are, to Kiwis. We were reading the New Zealand headlines today and laughed all over again, and yes we are home now, so it is funny. It was scary when we were there. It was like living among people who are always ready to file false abuse claims, and you don’t even want to LOOK at them for fear they will scream abuse about you. Scary! My daughter said being an American in Aotearoa was like reading in the Nat Enq that “Brittney Spears is addicted to coke” and in America the actual article on the last page would inform you that it was actually “Coca-cola”, only in NZ you wouldn’t find the article on the last page with the truth in it, even. To give you an example. The two top America-related headlines in the NZ news now are “U.S. launches missiles at Libya” and “Man Stoned to Death in the U.S.”.
The actuality is that the U.S. is participating, after being asked to, in a FRENCH AND BRITISH LED ACTION against an unpopular leader who is trying to cope with an uprising in a tinderbox region, but the intelligent coverage on that would be minimal, while the U.S. MISSLE LAUNCH would be shouted from the rooftops, feeding that “Steroidal Warmonger America” stereotype perpetuated in New Zealand. The truth is that many Americans are 100% purely fed up with the military intervention, and the next election should be a very interesting one. Another one was “Man Stoned to Death in the U.S.”, right up there next to the “U.S. Launches Missiles on Libya”, equating the U.S. with hypocritical Arab-like brutality by marrying the one story with the other. The unfortunate stoning incident was actually a young, unstable religious nut dude hitting a poor gay guy in the head with a sock that had a stone in it. Not much different from anything that might happen in New Zealand, which has plenty of its own anti-gay crimes and violence, does it not. This was not Shirley Jackson’s Lottery, or a crazy fundamentalist sect with a compound. They deliberately and regularly foster this view of the U.S. in New Zealand. It was an eye-opening experience for myself and my children.
We are glad to be home and away from the bloody-minded idiocy. A friend of ours is still stuck there in Wellie – she had a child with a Kiwi, and got that famous Scary American Treatment in their courts, so it is pervasive, we found it in academia as well, and in politics, at high levels among people you would think would have to possess something resembling a brain to be functioning at those levels. No. They do not have to have a brain to be warming those seats. We are so relieved to be back!
oh, and to add another comment – the 3rd story down on their America topic list today? was about what would be (in America) a very boring trade name battle between two NJ food establishments known for “hot dogs fried in fat until they rip”. Obligatory picture of someone stuffing their face with a giant hot dog. Where is Paul Henry when you need him at moments like this to make his 999th knee-jerk fat American joke? Oh, I forgot, the good-hearted humble and noble Kiwis who love him so much have not reinstated him yet.I am surprised that Kiwis continue to flog this “Americans are…” horse in a country where they need the meat off of the animal more than they do the canned laugh.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/6046887/Kiwis-space-photos-stun-astronomers
The press here is -
yeah. Agree with Mac
Along with top-viewed stories about fat American toddlers taken away from their parents and the usual Black Friday victim (fat Americans trampling and killing one another to Buy Sh**t!), always popular because it’s so much easier to laugh at furriners than to look at their own serious problems, they have the stellar Kiwi…
“Kiwi’s space photos stun astronomers!”
I read it and the guy is “Olsen”? uh….sure enough, at the very end, they quietly slip the truth in – dude is actually a Dane, who has lived here 8 years! Citizenship paperwork makes you a Kiwi if you do something cool, but if you do something naughty, they’ll make sure to downplay the citizenship angle. LOL!
Did you hear Paul Henry went to visit his daughter and promote his book in America. He was pulled over for speeding three times in his Mustang in one year. No doubt he was trying to provoke an incident that he could joke about.
He said, “I can usually talk my way out of it, but in this case the guy [the police officer] was quite aggressive and unpleasant and you’ve got to be a bit careful over there because they are heavily armed.”
(and violent, Paul, don’t forget violent – you should be permitted to speed, shouldn’t you!).
He gave explanation, “You’ve got a V8 Mustang, you are in America, the speed limit is 75-80 miles an hour anyway, the road is straight and long and you are at least on a dual carriage freeway – it’s just so very hard to hold the car back. “Do you want to go through your whole life with your foot on the brake? I don’t think so…It’s not my style”.
Given how Paul criticizes Americans’ lack of impulse control in overeating, it takes a bit of chutzpah to tool around racking up speed tickets. Then again, we can see that he believes it’s the car’s fault, wanting its head, and after all, it’s America. Forcing those Kiwis into bad behavior again, like our TV shows making them all violent.
Own something, you dodgy b*stards!
There was a post on his daughter not long ago on the GP forums. In Kansas, what a place for her, and doing her dad proud.
“I don’t find him funny,” she told Women’s Day. “People tell me about the things he has said, but I don’t watch because I’m not really into what’s happening in the world.”
Spoken like a true Kiwi! If she isn’t just taking the p*ss, she also wants implants.
The original poster seemed to have an inferiority complex. The bastard from Boston is why I hate Yankees. I wasn’t aware of the New Zealand attitude towards Americans. Now I think we should’ve left you sheep lovers to the Japs.
Well isn’t this interesting? I am a Kiwi & I think you should all have a look at what you have said here. It says a lot more about your attitudes, biases & natures than it does about us Kiwis. I am well aware that not all New Zealanders are nice people, nor are they all worldly or intelligent, however the same goes for anywhere else in the world. The fact that you have chosen to ignore this fact & spew vitriol onto the www that everyone (yes, even Kiws) can read is offensive & ignorant. I don’t care where you are from, your actions are what matters. Perhaps your words are actually mirrors of your own behaviour, because in reading what you have all said, a lot of you have exhibited exactly the behaviours that you are criticising. Food for thought perhaps?
Oh & Paul Henry is not a Kiwi – he’s British! The irony of your assumptions & misinformation given what you have accused Kiwis of is not lost on me folks!
If it walks like a Kiwi, talks like a Kiwi……
Who cares where he was born, New Zealanders are all immigrants. He’s Kiwi now.
I’d have to say that some of the “fat” notion is probably British projection by kiwis.
If our readers have any examples of anti-Americanism in New Zealand we’d love to hear from them.
Not all Kiwis dislike Americans, of course not. And just because one person doesn’t dislike them doesn’t mean that their compatriots uniformly treat Americans well. I think “a certain percentage of Americans are surprised to see the degree to which it does exist here”. That would be a better way of putting it. Also, there is a kind of hazing that Americans never expect, and you will do a wee bit betterif you can get past that with humour and tolerance. As earnest and emotionally out front as they are, Americans expect to be taken seriously as human beings on an interpersonal level and are sometimes chilled to find interpersonal relationships take a different form here. The intimacy they are accustomed to is just lacking. Kiwis are really defensive, too, however, and I find they take umbrage at things unintended as offensive by the other lot.
Possibly Americans find it hard to accept that chit chat here has more of a purpose. If there is no gain in it for them, Kiwis don’t want to chat. Whereas in America, chit chat is just that – people chat “just because”.
There are cultural differences that are irritating on both sides, for certain..
Googling around will find sufficient instances of a certain Kiwi attitude towards Americans – that they are all rich, burger-gobbling land-grabbing, nuke-throwing fat morons. We have come in for it to some extent.ourselves and I have posted on it before, so don’t feel like reproducing it.again for someone who can’t be bothered to check it out.
Upshot. Some of it is taking politics to an interpersonal level and blaming Americans for their government’s actions, some of it is ignorance about stereotypes, and some of it is cultural friction.
i agree. The original poster perhaps doesn’t realize that Americans themselves MAY NOT actually be happy with the way the government runs or they wouldn’t have emigrated here in the first place. So to place Americans with the actions of the government, really is a bit over the top.
What matters to me, is if people are nice to me. You treat others how you yourself want to be treated. I was brought up with manners, and because manners are a part of my culture (being American) — I have not left them there…they have come with me.
I feel that all cultures have something to bring to NZ, and NZ should accept the differences that we bring – rather than being suspicious when we compliment you (and mean it) — just say “thank you.”
I do like where i live in NZ but I am not particularly fond of most (not all) of its people. I do have a Kiwi friend and we discuss the differences between the 2 cultures often, as we are both open about it…and we can examine the differences.
In other words, in America — we support people who want to better themselves, while here – it seems to be a society full of envy. If you envy someone or are jealous, it is enough to just hate you or think of enough reasons to make things up.
I have found South Island people to be a bit more welcoming to outsiders, but that is just my personal experience. Living in Taranaki – there are not that many happy Kiwis here (it does not appear that way) and so I miss being around people who can make fun of themselves. Yeah, our American humor is corny, but so what. At least we don’t take ourselves so darn seriously. Life is too short to be angry & rude all the time.
My Canadian friends have moved back to Canada…they just couldn’t take the people here. It got to them at such a level that they just couldn’t stand it anymore.
This is too bad, because NZ really needs talented people. I really think the foreigners that come — that they come for a reason. Maybe it is to learn tolerance, or maybe to help make NZ a better place. What I do know, is that I think many other cultures (if we stick together) CAN make it a better place for everyone to live. At least that is what I am hoping for.
http://www.jasonsummers.org/new-zealand-apparently-needs-9-billion-from-us/
NZ gets 9 billion from US? Did that ever happen?
and
http://forextrib.com/forex-news-analysis/forex-market-news/china-new-zealand-announce-cny25-bln-currency-swap-agreement-imarketnews/
China and NZ swapping USD?
http://www.dailymarkets.com/forex/2011/05/29/forex-nzdusd-weekly-outlook-may-30-june-3/
Media outlets in New Zealand reported that China Investment Corporation, a USD300 billion fund, may have set aside up to 1.5% or USD 4.9 billion of its foreign-exchange reserves to invest in New Zealand assets.
Which assets? do the locals know? They are not keen on selling off their patrimony to foreigners, as we know.
Are any of these events connected? Economists? I smell a rat. All I hear here is how America’s going down the tubes and NZ is a better place to be. B.S. As long as their mortages don’t go up an extra 100 a month, maybe. Second Worlders are certainly more used to austerity than First Worlders are. They do have that advantage.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1692719/posts
I am sure he wouldn’t turn down a trade deal though.
Hello everyone. I wanted to take a minute and investigate what is really going on here. Obviously you can’t hold an entire country that is comprised of VERY different states accountable for the federal government that runs it. Especially when most of the inhabitants of this country absolutely despise and do not condone the behavior of its government. Texans are, probably in many ways, very similar to people from your region. Surely visitors to NZ are looked at on an individual level and given a chance to present what could be an extremely pleasant human being who values important things like love and genuine happiness? Everyone that I talk to speaks so highly of the NZ region, i’ve never heard an american say a bad thing about a Kiwi. It’s shocking to see that there is hate there.
At any rate. I am an american, but I am not fat, do not eat fast food, and i haven’t watched TV in over 5 years. I’ve worked extremely hard to get to where I am by performing and not taking advantage of others, or losing myself in the process. After a substantial number of life experiences, I was considering a move to NZ so that I could focus on internal and spiritual growth. It seems that this may not be a good idea.
To be clear: If I am an american, and if I am a good person (helpful, balanced, caring, strong) with a good sense of humor (can roll with the punches, loves sarcasm)… am I still going to be prejudiced against in NZ?
If you’re going to accept being treated as a second-class person, you’ll be okay.
It seems they get antsy if you know your rights or refuse to accept their stereotype of you.
Get to know some of the migrants, they’ll probably set you right about what you need to know coming in as a foreigner. And as far as possible gain supplementary local information from different officials and representatives – so that you aren’t “suddenly surprised” by information that was, for whatever reason, “forgotten to be passed on”.
Yes. In a simple word.
What alot of Kiwis don’t realize is that NZ gets the best of the best from other countries.. It takes alot to get permanent residency in NZ (background, health checks, etc) and only the best come. But when we are treated like dirt — we question the entire thing & wonder whether we should go somewhere else.
I have lived here for 2+ years and was not prepared for the amount of anti-Americanism that exists here. It will really amaze you.
And if you are accustomed to polite, caring people — good customer service, good restaurant food – you will be in for another rude awakening. None of these exist.
I miss being able to walk into a warm restaurant, order from a large, varied menu of reasonable choices, and just enjoy a meal.
Many places open up their establishments and leave the door wide open in winter. They like their indoors so cold, I hate that here. And you can’t afford anything, either. When you do buy something, it is 9 times out of 10 not as good as home, or they are stingy with the servings. The prices are terrible.
We live in New Zealand, and we never eat out. The high cost of living makes it impossible as a regular enjoyment, anyway. Most of your income will go on housing, utilities, petrol and food. After that, you are lucky to have a penny left, anyway. We close up the house except for a couple bedrooms and only heat those, and the bill is over 300 a month. And this is in the “winterless” north. And yes, we are leaving when we can manage it! This is not the lifestyle we moved here to have.
Should have stayed home.
Being proud of being American is a very bad thing here. A very very very bad thing. New Zealanders don’t show the same degree of patriotism. But when they do, it’s called being proud of their country and it’s ok. But when an American shows his/her patriotism, it’s called being a stereotypical, arrogant American who thinks everything is always better in America. Double standards. (Not all New Zealanders are like this. But for the most part. I still have some wonderful New Zealander friends who are fascinated with America and think it’s amazing that I’m from there. I’m always over-ecstatic when I meet a New Zealander who loves America.
)
Just as an example; More than just a few kiwis have proffered the idea that the “moon landing” was faked. It is a way of imposing the “tall poppy” thing on other nationalities.
So, no matter how much you want to contribute to society, you’ll be sadled with that bagage.
It is not a merit-based society. They operate on the basis of who knows whom and palm greasing. So if you take pride in having worked to reach a certain level and expect that to be recognised, drop that idea.
If you can roll with the punches you will do fine with the snide remarks. I second talking to local migrants.
The gouging is another thing entirely. I met an American lady in town the other day who said she was fresh off the boat and already ripped off once, and also been warned twice by other Americans about ripoffs. Won’t be long before she wished she had met more like that and spoken with them before selling up and moving down here. I have not met a single other American in town (I know a handful) who doesn’t have at least one ripoff story.
There are nice Kiwis here, but they take awhile to find. And then actually forming good permanent friendships with them is a whole different ballgame.
read some Kiwi in America type blogs, comments, forums and they are funny – Kiwis who move to America think they will be shot at due to the image of America in their own press, and while there, they are amazed that they aren’t instant victims of gun crime!
I’d been living here in NZ for the last 5 years now and I find that most Kiwis, in general, have a peninsular mindset and are ignorant, hence, their views about Americans and the world are always suspicious. This peninsular mindset is ingrained and taught while Kiwi children are still in their primary school, no wonder, they develop a sarcastic attitude when they become adults. While I must admit that not all Kiwis have a peninsular mindset, most of them, in their own right, more often than not, has this “supremacy attitude” and this attitude is expressed by implicitly and explicitly looking down on others, ie, by always making rude, smart-ass remarks or comments, mocking a non-Kiwi accent, making a sarcastic comeback that’s triggered to make someone feel stupid so Kiwis feel “supreme” over the others.
This “supremacy attitude” is directed to all non-Kiwis, btw, not just Americans. Singling-out Americans as Kiwis don’t like them is an understatement. This “supremacy attitude” applies to all nationalities as long as you are not a Kiwi. Perhaps, I should say that “racism” is actually NZ’s best-kept secret and this is magnified by their ignorance and lack of understanding on what’s happening around the world.
On the other hand, there are Kiwis who are also polite and accommodating, but you will find that these Kiwis are more of an exception than a general rule. But just to be fair, Kiwis in general have good virtues too – they are upright in their dealings and uncompromising to do on what is right. But then again, “what is right depends on what Kiwis consider as right”, and being polite and having excellent customer service is not one of them (they’re not friendly people-persons). Not because they don’t want to, it’s simply unnatural for them and takes more of an effort to practice courtesy. Kiwis, in general, often obey rules and laws and they know if they have crossed the line, hence, you can admire that most of the population practices self-discipline to right the wrong.
What I find fascinating here is that it’s easier to deal with Kiwi men as they are more level-headed than to deal with Kiwi women. While most countries have an equal balance of gender, Kiwi men are calmer, level headed and more intelligent than Kiwi women, in general. Again, there are many intelligent women in NZ but, in this regard, the scale is tipped towards men than women. But both genders share equally the same rights, freedom and privileges.
I find it contradictory that Kiwis do not like Americans when the contrary is true with KIwis when it comes to international training that requires expertise, you might be surprised to know that aside from other nationalities, Americans are paid for and sought-after by Kiwis to train them.
To think that Kiwis do not like Americans is a complete fallacy, to be honest. Talk is really cheap. The very main reason why Kiwis dislike Americans in their talks is the very same reason that Kiwis seek and pay for Americans to help them to be trained to become experts. What, did I hear someone say hypocrites?
“they are upright in their dealings and uncompromising to do on what is right”, more like the apearance of what is right.
Kiwis are great believers of it is OK, if you don’t get caught. There is a thin veneer of propriety, once you scratch through that veneer, it is a whole new ball game.
There is a public face [proper, upright...], and a private face [do whatever as long as you don't get caught].
“they are upright in their dealings and uncompromising to do on what is right”
I would disagree with this. Though there are some upright ones, too many justify their behaviour with a veneer of uprightness, using arguments intended to appeal to fairness. That is not the same thing. Also, the elderly people are in the main honest. The younger the generation, the “more likely” you are to find fast and loosers.
Many misunderstandings arise when foreigners accustomed to a life of relative luxury, or good quality for reasonable prices, come down to New Zealand and feel they are ripped off by poor quality, sharp trading, high prices. I wish people were more aware of what to expect. Many Kiwis do not know any better, and are offended. There is a chasm of difference in expectation and experience! They think the foreigners are spoiled. Relatively speaking, they are! Some of this is genuine misunderstanding. It is good that more descriptive, balanced accounts of New Zealand living are appearing on the web, so immigrants have more information available to them than they did 10 years ago.
I know one woman who moved to Outback Australia? She could not hack life on the station, having to drive hours to the nearest store. Similar for New Zealand. When the beautiful views become more mundane, and novelty wears off, daily life in a country with unfamiliar hardship becomes a grind for those who take comforts for granted.
Funny thread on GP forums.
http://www.gpforums.co.nz/showthread.php?s=a54d8566c85769835d923817677ad117&threadid=428625&perpage=25&pagenumber=1
The consensus there seemed to be that America had many bad points, but usually Americans themselves as individuals were not too bad. I have lived in New Zealand for about 3 years now. New Zealand is the opposite. Beautiful country, but the people are awful to deal with if you are not throwing money at them.
NZ has a large international group of people due to tourism and EUs are just as terrible and so rude. Yet they ALL sit and watch American reality TV all day long and get drunk listening to American top 40 at the bars.
I am an Afro-American and people listen to our music and watch us on TV then act like i’m some sort of alien because they have never actually seen one in real life.
European men are so racist, i’m a girl, and people just stare at me when i walk down the street. i wanted to leave the deep south to get away from all that but it is my life anywhere. people try to touch me and pet my hair like i’m an animal and talk to me like a baby. It is impossible to get a job because your looks are a big deal in getting a job except, sorry, but EUs are some of the ugliest people i’ve ever seen.
Most americans work hard to look good and EU look like death walking. sorry but if people are going to turn me away from jobs for being brown with natural hair then they should look in the mirror. Most NZ young people are so underqualified for employment that I thought it would be no problem landing a job in my field. Nope. Cafes will hire foreigners and they’ll put you to the dishes. I was making the food and all the customers complained and my boss said ‘that’s why all americans are fat’. the food here is so terrible. stale crusty shit with no flavor…or giant ass sausages that will give you a heart attack.
The university system is a joke. My professors are really unaware and only know about NZ and are biased because i was educated abroad and I have brought so many changes to the department. The young people take a year off and work at bars in canada then come back to NZ totally unprepared. Kiwis and EU and American young people all live off their parents money and travel around and get drunk and don’t work. I thought I left that behind! They can only speak English which more Americans know a second language than Kiwis.
There is racism all around. Afro-Americans have made a long journey to drop the hate and anger towards whites and no it is not perfect but people are starting to make a conscious effort now. Maoris and Islanders are so racist so then nothing gets done. Think about it…everything they complain about Americans are what white Kiwis hate about Maori they just can’t say it. The Maori imitate black culture as a way to figure how to deal with oppressiona and find a current identity. Maori people are generally closed off. I thought as a person of color there would be warmth and a connection but they will not interact with me or speak with me or invite me over.
Indians are many here and the same way they seem to prefer white people as friends and try to be like them. Africans don’t even smile at you…unless they are pervy men. In the states there is a inner connection between people of color (non white people) and black people greet each other even if we don’t know each other. Africans will not but I force them to by saying hello first. I know these are completely different cultures but I thought there would be some kind of common ground my god. People act like i should hate America because I’m black but it’s complicated. They are the powers that be so learn their knowledge and ways and fight the system from within, accomplish what they have then excell at it and make a path for others. Maori just haven’t gotten there yet. and I don’t want to hear what some Norwegian brat has to complain about America when she has been there for a week as a tourist on her daddy’s money and watches America’s next top model marathons.
People ‘joke’ alot and then say take it its just a joke what is your problem. If you defend yourself they think you are a b$%^&. I feel like all these foreigners will go back to their countries and say how awful black people are because I am so strange to them yet they listen to hard core rap and know every word. They talk shit about America but all they know is white America and I’m waiting for the day someone slips up. Kiwis don’t know anything about the Spanish speaking world either…which is like half the globe!
Everything is so expensive yet the quality is so bad! Rainjackets are essential here…300-500 dollars and thin as paper! I came here for school and the overseas fees are insane and i’m having a terrible time and getting a shit education and my degree will be a joke back in the states.
I wanted to leave the south because all the young ladies were just getting married like it was 1800 and talking about weddings all the damn time and I wanted to see the world. I should have gone to NYC or London. I have met some good people but everyone is so much younger than me that I feel like a late bloomer. I will try and enjoy myself and make the most of it. Back home I’m the only one that has ever been to NZ. Study abroad here kids but don’t get the whole degree and don’t move here!
Tired, I hope your year of study goes quickly and you can find a place where people treat you the way you want to be treated. I am a Yank (white) and had a next-door neighbor who was a tribal lady from Africa, and she was a breath of fresh air compared to the Kiwis. I was so sad when she moved away.
@ Tired
I feel your pain. I lived in ChCh, NZ from 2001-2002 and I couldn’t WAIT to get the F*** out of there. I was surrounded by so many racist white-kiwis who reminded me of old, racist, kkk men from the deep south in the States. I kept thinking to myself, “well I could have just visited the southern part of the states for a year instead of cominng here, it’s the same thing.” The level of ignorance about the U.S. is astounding and it’s based on tv shows, movies, tabloids, etc. Yes there is antiamericanism in NZ and I wouldn’t have a problem with it, if it were based on facts and personal experiences/travel to the U.S. If someone came to me and said, “I hate the U.S. and I used to live there for a year or so.” , Then there would be validity to their statement but most of them have never been to the States and will tell you how much they despise a country they have never visited. It’s perfectly normal to dislike a country or culture, it’s called being human. However, it’s wrong when a person has never stepped foot in the country they dislike so much.
I’m an expat who has lived abroad for years. I had a Kiwi roommate who was a guy and he was obnoxious. I couldn’t stand him at all. The 3rd week I was living at the apartment, he let me know his opinion of the states but it wasn’t based on any facts. It was based on some tv shows and movies. I told him that too and he became defensive. Plus there was just the lack of knowledge about global politics and what is going on in the world, he had lived abroad for years and was completely clueless about what was going on in other countries. He was also a know-it-all and was constantly dispensing unsolicited advice.
I’ve met a few, rare, wonderful exceptions and befriended them, but most of the Kiwis I’ve met when I lived in NZ and also while traveling abroad tend to only care about drinking, smoking weed, taking acid or pills, staying ignorant, and telling you how much they hate {insert a country} based on movies and tv shows.
My best experiences with expats have been with Scandinavians, Germans, Dutch, Polish, Czechs, Italians, Israelis, Brazilians, Argentines, Cubans, and Chileans. They tend to be multilingual, well traveled, educated, and know what they are talking about in a conversation or a debate. They are a lot of fun to be around.
The worst people I’ve met abroad are Kiwis, Americans, English and Aussies; to me they are the worst for different reasons that very specific.
So perhaps it’s just people from English speaking countries that are the worst?
I don’t know but I usually avoid them (including my fellow countrymen/women) when I live abroad.
Interesting reading.
I’m an American living in Auckland and I have found Kiwis to be incredibly friendly, especially when they hear my accent. Granted, I’ve only been here for a little over 2 months. Someone posted that they don’t like to chat just for the sake of chatting, which I don’t agree with. I’ve met a lot of chatty Kiwis, they seem to be more chatty than not. As a whole, they seem to be open and friendly people.
I’ve had one negative experience. I had one guy call me an “Aggressive American” in a bar after he introduced himself: “Hi my name is XXX, I like the small of a woman’s back, the turn of her ankle. I am recently divorced with two children. You have beautiful eyes. I’m not picking up on you.” He was three sheets to the wind and after I very politely told him that I was married (a few times) he stated calling ME “aggressive”. Perhaps I had to get a little aggressive with him to get the point across that I was married and was not interested. All in all, it was pretty funny (I took no offense) and my new Kiwi girl-friend and I have laughed about that night quite a bit.
Its not just aniti- Americanism – its anti -pretty much everyone. Just like “small men” generalisation (you know – they are nasty/bitchy/over aggressive/self conscious and overcompensation for lack of stature), NZ has “small country” syndrome. The world is one big threat to their way of life.
Also very unfriendly, and subscribe to stereotypes about whoever – yanks, saffas, aussies, french, etc- like its gospel instead of just finding out themselves – so set in tehir wasy and staid. I dont find Kiwis very warm at all – not outgoing or hospitable at all. And, if it aint kiwi work experience, it doesn’t count (ridiculously in some cases, where some offshore experience dwarfs stuff done here) .
Kiwis are incredibly small minded too, this also includes some “happy immigrants” who try too hard to be like kiwis, bitching about other nationalities based on stereotypes, but who in reality live in no-man’s land, I’ve had the misfortune to deal with some of those as well.
NZ is nothing but a white Gary Coleman (rip)
(ridiculously in some cases, where some offshore experience dwarfs stuff done here) .
You’d think that a small insular country would welcome diversity of experiance, but things need to be done the kiwi way [even if it is slower, poorer quality...]
Offshore tech is not valued.
Note some of the ones who like it here have only been here a short time. It took about a year and a half of trying hard, mixed positives and negatives, and ignoring red flags so as not to look like a whinger, for me to see that I was a poor fit as an immigrant.
I think that those those who haven’t tried to embed themselves in a community yet and seen how they operate here have a sunnier view of New Zealand.
The ones who do not like it turn their attention towards leaving, and mainly succeed.
The few who stay are the ones who were good fits as migrants in the first place. The ones who realise it’s not for them and then put all their effort into leaving as soon as possible are the ones you do not hear from as often, but they are the ones who are important to listen to if you are thinking about migrating, because they’ll be straight up about what they didn’t like. You’ll hear from them more as they are trying to work out in their minds why they don’t like it, so they will sound off a bit on one forum or another (not just expatexposed but other ones too) and then stop spending time on the Internet and simply use their waking hours to get it together, leave, and never look back. It is considerably harder to leave than to immigrate here due to having less money after landing, having it siphoned off you while living here, and having been left behind in one’s skills or unable to find work, etcetera.
I appreciate the efforts of this site owner and others such as Agness on expatexposed who didn’t just leave and not look back. They took the time and effort after they left to shine their flashlights on NZ’s problems, the reasons why so many Kiwis leave the country, and the cultlike efforts to attract fresh blood and their assets to keep the country afloat. If you come after reading all this and like it, more power to you for informing yourself. If you decide NZ might not be for you because these sites exist, and so you’re better informed than some of the rest of us were, so much the better. If you read all this and still come, well… you have my sympathy but you’re either very idealistic or a fool and you’ll be parted from your ideals and money soon enough.
Kathleen, you sound like you wouldn’t be happy where ever you go. You sound closed minded and jaded. Yes, I’ve only been here for a short time, but I remain open minded and ready to embrace anyone who is the same. I’ve lived all over the world and I have found that no place is perfect, there is a downside to where ever you live, even a tropical paradise like Hawaii. You have to take the bad with the good and focus on the good to be happy.
Not every place is going to make every person happy. We’re all individuals with independent dreams, goals and standards of living. That said, to lump an entire country of people into a few stereotypes is unfair. I would hate it if it happened to me, and I’m sure you would too.
@Ruby girl
I’m glad you’re having a good experience in NZ. That’s great! I noticed your reply to Kathleen; just because someone else doesn’t like NZ, does not mean that there is something inherently wrong with them because of their reaction to the culture. To take the focus away from her experience and pinpoint her reaction is a form of “gaslighting.” It makes the focus about what is wrong with her, and there is nothing wrong with her. When the focus should be what she can do to get the most out of her time in NZ, a country that can be difficult to live in at times.
(The currentconscience.com has a blog post about gaslighting.)
Look I’ve lived all over the world as well and some places I’ve liked better than others. I love Denmark! I love Mexico! I can’t stand NZ! Does that mean NZ is a bad place because I don’t like it? No it doesn’t. NZ is a good country, however as a person of color from the U.S., I would not advise other POC to live there. It’s a great place for a vacation but I don’t think that is a place that a POC or someone from one of the more cosmopolitan areas of the world could enjoy living (not vacationing) in NZ without noticing some glaring anti-POC problems.
I was there for a year and the amount of anti-everything (pick an ethnic group) diatribe that I had to listen to daily was exhausting. It reminded me of living in pockets of the U.S. that are white supremacist. Every country has its flaws, that is correct. My problem with NZ is that from the North island to the South Island, I heard some really ignorant racist ideologies which were based on some kind of indoctrination. They weren’t small pockets of the country, it was pervasive and everywhere.
I had several Kiwis tell me that people of African descent and Asians were cursed.
Many people told me this and they weren’t trying to be offensive, they really believed what they said.
I was also tired of telling Kiwis that no one calls people “negroes or n*****s” anymore. in the U.S. and U.K. It wasn’t just the older generation, it was the younger generation who thought it was perfectly fine to call someone this in casual conversation. Example, “Oh look there are two negroes walking down the street.” You’d think that since the NZ media has been saturated with British and American tv, by request of NZ networks (U.S. and British networks didn’t force NZ to buy their tv shows) that they would know that no one is called by racial derogatory names/epithets as a matter of casual conversation.
NZ kind of reminds me of a secular version of Texas. If you stripped away the psychotic-religious culture of Texas and made it agnostic, then Texas and NZ are similar.
Golliwogs and all…..
Rubygirl, there was a time when Kathleen was as idealistic and as “open minded and ready to embrace” as you are now. If you ever have to stay in New Zealand for as long as she and our other readers have, please come back and share your experience with us. We will not judge you as easily as you have judged..
Until then, enjoy your honeymoon while it lasts.
Sorry, I didn’t feel as if I was judging. I am of the camp that believes you get what you put out there. If you expect people to treat you a certain way, they will.
But I will check back after being here a few years and let you know my experience.
Rugbygirl don’t most migrants belong to that camp?
No one emigrates looking for the same old same old. They all put a great deal of effort, time and resources in to the whole emigration process, it’s too simplistic to say they “only get what they put out” when they’ve put their lives and financial security into making the move to New Zealand.
Thanks for your contribution, keep in touch and we wish you well.
Thank you, webmaster. I have lived in other countries and enjoyed them. I especially enjoyed France, because I like wine, art, history and a vigorous intelligent discussion.
) That might give you a clue as to why I didn’t enjoy New Zealand, though the wine does help make you forget the rest of it! ;o) Yes, I migrated with a completely open mind, and even shoved aside the things that I noticed, things that started to happen to me, because “yes”, bad things happen everywhere and problems exist everywhere, of course they do. I tried to “only remember the positive things” in an effort to make my positive atittude less shaky when the bad things happened to me. But eventually the bad outweighed the good, and it took about a year and a half. It could be that this poster won’t have the experiences others have had. Not everyone does! Auckland is more multicultural, and the Kiwis there are more accustomed to foreigners. She needs to move further into the society, work, invest, try to develop a support network, date men (or women), and in general become more familiar with New Zealand. I sincerely hope she is one of the lucky ones who fare well and like it here. But she shouldn’t tell the rest of us that we aren’t open-minded enough. I kept my mind quite open. The problem was what they filled it with! 
)
I’m sorry I said you didn’t have an open mind. You had your experiences and I respect that. You can direct your comments directly to me, I am here and listening with open ears.
Like I said, in my previous post, I am sorry that I sounded “judgy” and I will give it a year and 1/2 and repost my experiences.
Thank you Kathleen.
I’m sorry.
I’m sorry that I was judgmental, I really didn’t mean to be. I’m sorry that I called Kathleen close-minded. I wrote that without thinking and I wish I could take it back. I also wish that we could move on from that. I understand that I was wrong and I would like to move forward.
Like I said twice before, I will remain open-minded during my stay here and will report back when I’ve been here longer. Perhaps my experiences will be like yours, perhaps they will be quite different. Only time will tell.
What I do know is that my experience has already been different from what is described here. You are all asking that I respect your experiences, and I sincerely do, I only ask the same from you.
Don’t worry about it, Rubygirl, no offense taken, and you know, I might have had the same reaction only a couple months into it, because I wanted to embrace it. I had invested so much in loving it here. I didn’t want anyone raining on my parade, either, back then. I sincerely hope you have a happy time here. I don’t want people not to like it, because the loss of the mistake, for some of us, has been unrecoverable. Left eye looking and I, for various reasons, did not enjoy living here. Seems like the people themselves were the worst of it for both of us, though the financial aspect was not negotiable for me either. It is an isolated island that has produced a particular way of its inhabitants relating to one another, although you cannot really see this until you have peeled back a few layers and embedded yourself. That takes time (unless, like lefteye, you are very recognisable on the street). And you know, luck comes into it, too. But outside of the bad luck, for me, it was just a culture I didn’t enjoy. It was like sandpaper to my sensibilities.
Very bad country. I have been here for 4 years as an immigrant from North America and I can tell you that living here is not nice.
By all north American and European standards New Zealand is a very poor country. Also, they lie a lot when they market themselves. They tell you we have a very good education system and unviersities and it’s all green, clean and we care about animals. But in reality, they have a very low standard level of education, high pollution level and the worst curelty to animals; best examples are how they treat their pigs.
The funny thing is that they think they have a better quality of life where every 6 months more than 4000 kiwis cross the boarder to Australia to have a better life. You can’t make it in this country. Economy is very bad and literally no jobs here. Get to north america or Australia before thining about immigrating to this little unkown country called New Zealand.
Martin, you’re quite right. The reality of New Zealand is vastly different than the propaganda. More so than you’d ever expect. It’s the opposite of a clean, environmentally aware, safe place. I’m glad you’ve brought up the issue of animal cruelty. It’s appalling to see so much of it here. There are many, many examples, but one is the “charming” practice of tethering a lone goat to a low tin shack, usually in full sun. Imagine the suffering of the poor, gregarious animal being left out alone like that, yet it is an extremely common rural sight, and considered a part of Kiwiana. Animal abuse seems rampant. Not surprising, though, considering the extremely high rates of child abuse and child murder. Kiwis sweep problems under the rug, and blandly accept behaviour that would appall others.
Add shark finning too (which is legal if the shark is dead…wonder how they met their deaths…). Their hypocrisy is appalling, they criticise Asian countries, but they should look in the mirror first.
Kiwiana = boganism
I just don’t get any of you people on both sides of the debate. Honestly, shark finning, warm restaurants, animal cruelty? Kiwis are this, Americans are that.. I mean, jesus, I always thought Americans were a warm people and I was treated so well when I was in America that I couldn’t conceive they could actually be anything like the stereotypes, I’ve always thought my fellow Kiwis laid back, she’ll be right sort of people. But here you BOTH are, Kiwis and Americans alike reinforcing the worst possible stereotypes of each other.
Well done, really, this is, by far the stupiest ‘debate’ I have ever read, anywhere. I now feel stupid even contributing to it.
The problem is that Americans are pretty straight up about America’s problems. We have a People of Walmart site for instance showing off the worst of ourselves, and we debate our open sores freely. New Zealand markets itself cleverly and its people have an inaccurate idea of themselves and their country. Sites like this were set up when enough migrants became fed up with the disparity.